Intervew with Meg & Vincent Baker (compiled from the NSR Discord)

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NSR:

You have mentioned how influential ‘Narrativism: Story Now’ was when designing AW. What elements (if any) of that Ron Edwards’ essay still inform your designing practice?

Vincent:

If you ask me, the best way now to understand Narrativism is as a big, sprawling, long-running game jam. Like, “here’s a fun thing rpgs can do. Let’s make and play some games that work this way!” “Yes, let’s!” In those terms, Apocalypse World was my last entry in the jam, the last game I intentionally set out to make as a Narrativist game. (Dogs in the Vineyard was the first.)

Although since you mention it, I suppose that some of my subsequent games might happen to be too, if anybody bothers to check. It’s not important to me now. The idea of what are you playing to find out has completely replaced it for me.

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NSR:

How has emergent storytelling changed in the last 10 years for you? What are the biggest points to study? Where will it go in the next 10 years?

Vincent:

How has emergent storytelling changed in the last 10 years for you? What are the biggest points to study?

For me personally, the biggest development in emergent storytelling in the past 10 years has been prompt-based games, like our games Firebrands and The King Is Dead, and For the Queen by Alex Roberts. If you haven’t, definitely check them out, they’re pretty cool, designed to be played by mixed groups of roleplayers and non-roleplayers.

Where will it go in the next 10 years?

I don’t even know! I’d just be guessing randomly.

[trashed_tabletop]

NSR:

Hi both, so excited to have you here! Game design question:

How long are you willing to tinker with an idea that’s exciting and interesting but isn’t clicking into place? At what point (if ever) do you determine whether it simply needs more iteration or isn’t ever going to work as envisioned? (This can apply to specific mechanics or entire projects.)

Vincent:

Oh seriously, I abandon 10 games for every game I finish, easy. Maybe 20! Every game I work on, every idea, is literally one unpromising playtest from the trash heap.

Short of a bad playtest, when a game or an idea starts to worry me for any reason, I down-prioritize it. I work on other things until I remember naturally to go back to it, and if I discover then that I can resolve my worries, great! It comes back up into active development. If I don’t, it doesn’t, and maybe I’ll come back to it again down the road. I’ll keep a game in limbo like that forever.

That’s where the Dogs in the Vineyard sequel (“The Deseret Affair”) is, for instance. Every time I remember it, I remember why I’m worried about it. I check to see if I’ve come up with a solution or a workaround — I haven’t — and then forget about it again for a while.

But a bad playtest, that’s immediate doom for any game I’m working on, no reprieves.

Meguey:

I’m a great believer in shelving things and then cannibalizing them for parts. I have game designs I’m constantly tinkering with in the back of my brain, waiting for the right combination of mechanic, social footprint, insight, and time to open up. Some of these have been brewing for a decade or more!

I say often that no creative work is ever wasted, because you learn from it. I also have a pretty robust patience practice, allowing things to go unfinished for years. I know from my textile background how absolutely huge the number of started creative outlets is compared to the number of finished goods. Game design is no different; if I don’t finish it now, it can wait. If I never do, that’s fine, it wasn’t going to happen. At least I’m not leaving my kids a workshop full of half-built end-tables, like a certain grandfather I had!

NSR:

[Replying to Vincent] Can you elaborate on what you mean by a “bad” playtest in this context? I assume it has to be pretty bad or bad in a specific way to be bad enough to abandon

Vincent:

Yeah. Really I mean unpromising. A playtest where the game doesn’t work, but it shows a way forward, is a good playtest. That’s what you’d expect in the early stages of a good game. A playtest where the game doesn’t work, and it doesn’t hold out the promise of working — that’s a bad one.

[trashed_tabletop]

NSR:

Hi and thank you for doing this AMA! I was listening to your interview with 3rd floor wars, and you spoke a bit about how the different phases in your lives informed your game design, from playing and enjoying longer form games pre kids, to wanting a “let’s get straight to the action” style when you were busy parents. I’m curious if your kids now being grown has changed your approach to gaming and design, and if so how.

Vincent:

Oh for sure. They still kind of dominate my gaming life, but now instead of trying to play around them and their schedules, they’re integral. For instance right now my only regular game is a playtest campaign of Tovey’s and my new project, working title The Demon Tree, that I’m running for Tovey, Elliot, and their friend Jess. At the same time, Meri’s running Burned Over, so I’ve picked Burned Over back up for active (final!) development.
(Tovey’s our youngest, 18. Elliot’s next and Meri’s our oldest, both in their 20s. All three are living here at home as a result of the pandemic.)

[trashed_tabletop]

NSR 1:

Vincent, you’ve talked before about your dissatisfaction with DitV’s portrayal of LDS history, do you think you’ll ever want to return to Mormon themes in a way you feel is more honest? If not, do you have any advice for story game designers who might want to approach those themes now? (FWIW, I joke sometimes that playing Dogs in high school and college made me a Muslim anarchist because of how it pushed me to reflect on my faith and my beliefs about policing. So that’s my bias asking this)

Vincent:

do you think you’ll ever want to return to Mormon themes in a way you feel is more honest?

I have a sequel in mind. It’s a great idea, everybody tells me — it’s now 1905 or so. You’re private detectives (a relatively new idea) out of Chicago, pursuing a kidnapping case into Utah. In it I’d be able to be more thorough about Utah history and show some of the aftermath of the genocide that Dogs in the Vineyard sweeps under the rug.

…But I keep not working on it, because (a) the kinds of true crime stories it’d be based on are unpleasant to study, and (b) there’s a technical feature of the game mechanics that needs to be readjusted somehow, and I haven’t hit upon how. Someday, I guess. I dunno.

If not, do you have any advice for story game designers who might want to approach those themes now?

Yeah. However you proceed, hold onto it lightly. If you find that you shouldn’t publish it, don’t. If you find that you need to pull it from publication later, do. Let it go the minute it’s not right. Listen to your own conscience, and listen to what other people are saying, the more you learn.

Meguey:

(Happy Ramadan. I practically never get asked about how my faith informs my design work, so forgive me for taking a moment to thank you for referencing yours. FWIW, I am a Sufi in the Ruhaniat path, raised Unitarian Universalist, and knowing that, you may understand a lot about where I’m coming from, design-wise!)

NSR 1:

Oh, actually yeah, that does actually make a lot of sense!

Yeah, if you have more to say about your faith and work, I’d be fascinated to read it! And of course Ramadan mubarak

NSR 2:

As a currently practicing UU, this post warmed my heart, a lot

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NSR 1:

How do you feel about PbtA games and PbtA-inspired games mostly called as genre-emulation systems? And is this something you folks like, or even intended?

Vincent:

I personally wouldn’t describe them that way. Would you call a movie a work of genre emulation, like “Dune is an sf-emulation movie” or “Knives Out is a whodunit-emulation movie”? “In Dune, Villeneuve emulated sf” or “in Knives Out, Johnson emulated whodunits”? Nah. But yknow, people are going to say whatever they’re going to say.

NSR 2:

following up on this, do you think there’s a reason why so many PbtA games went a genre emulation or similar route or at least that people talk about them that way?

when you say you wouldn’t describe PbtA games as genre emulation, does that mean you disagree they are that, or you think they are more than that or something else?

edit: honestly i would just love to hear more about your views of the concept of genre emulation i guess

Vincent:

honestly i would just love to hear more about your views of the concept of genre emulation i guess

I guess I just don’t understand it. What’s the difference between a game that emulates post-apocalyptic sci fi and a game that is post-apocalyptic sci fi? How do I tell which one I’ve made? If I prefer to make the latter, what should I be sure to do? What should I take care to avoid? If they’re the same, then what’s the word “emulate” doing?

Are there many PbtA designers who embrace the idea that they’re “emulating” genre? (I don’t.) Do they include it on the back covers of their books, in promo copy, in their Kickstarter campaigns? Not that I’ve seen. Who is it who uses the term, then?

Anyway. I’m skeptical.

NSR 3:

How would you differentiate, then, between a game that says it’s about vampires but feels more like superheroes (Vampire) and a game that has rules that match its vampire themes of hunger, loss of humanity and political infighting (Undying) if not by saying one uses vampire themes and settings but the other “emulates the genre”? This is what people mean by this, I think

Vincent:

Maybe so! It’s not how I’d say it.

NSR 3:

To clarify - how do you differentiate between games that claim to be post-apocalyptic sci fi but are not, vs games that are?

Or do you not think about games as “not about what they say” really at all?

Vincent:

Oh I’d just say it the way you just said it. This game claims to be post-apocalyptic sci fi but it’s not so much. This other game, is.

NSR 4:

I guess I see the claim of genre emulation not as attempting and failing to match a genre, but rather that a genre emulating game models aspects of a storytelling genre beyond only the setting.

So a non genre emulating Lotr style game would have elves and dwarves and whatever gandalf is, but no mechanism to necessarily make the game a heroic good vs evil heroic journey.

Whereas a genre emulating game might have way to model moments of doubt, failure before triumph, the weight of bearing a heavy mental burden, whatever.

Maybe not the best example, but it feels like it distinguishes Fellowship or The One Ring on one hand from certain styles of D&D on the other.

NSR 2:

I was suggesting earlier that “genre emulation”, for the folks who use it, refers to the games that do succeed to catch a genre

Vincent doesn’t think that’s the right word, and doesn’t think we need one - instead of trad games and genre emulation games there are games that work and games that don’t

I think that’s where we landed

NSR 2:

i feel like the divide is deeper sometimes. some games don’t even try. what does succeeding or failing to catch genre mean in those cases?

Vincent:

I’m coming around. I can see it! I’ll try to be less skeptical.

NSR 2:

could it be that this is one of those concepts that are maybe kind of useful to describe someone’s taste as a player but not so useful for designer or serious theoretical categorizations?

NSR 4:

I’d say there are some that make an explicit claim to model a storytelling genre, like Escape from Dino Island or Pasión de las Pasiónes

NSR 3:

Yes and I don’t think that concept is what Vincent was saying wasn’t on his mind - just naming it “emulation” because emulation suggests it’s an artificial copy

I wonder if it’s a difference between

• thinking about “emulators” in the sense of a computer providing the behavior of a game boy or a PlayStation platform

And

• thinking about “emulators” in the sense of the English language, a person who imitates

NSR 2:

i feel like the word emulation was probably chosen and spread because of the contrast to simulation (not necessarily in the GNS sense)

NSR 3:

That too

NSR 5:

The way I think of it (and I’m not speaking for anybody but myself) is that a game doesn’t emulate a genre, it’s just a game in that genre. Monster of the Week doesn’t emulate the genre of “Buffy” and “Scooby Doo” (whatever we call that one), any more than “X-Files” emulates a genre. It’s a work that is part of the genre.

NSR 6:

Folks might not be aware this question was answered three years ago in the PbtA FAQ: https://lumpley.games/2021/05/24/powered-by-the-apocalypse-part-7-qa-round-1/

NSR 3:

Yeah I can definitely see why that may be more correct - but at the risk of approaching the touchy subject of system matters, the reason people use the term emulator (correctly or not) is to draw a distinction between, say, playing a Regency Romance rpg with GURPS vs Good Society.

Gurps would simulate regency era England, Good Society would emulate regency era fiction

NSR 2:

i’m sure i have my biases in this, but i almost always see people mention genre emulation as a positive thing. i feel like here that’s not quite the connotation though

NSR 3:

Yes genre emulation is the positive side of the distinction being made. It’s almost pejorative to the games that are not that which is another reason some folks may not like it

NSR 4:

Funny I actually think of the term as neutral to negative when there’s a discussion of eg game recommendations. “This kind of game is about genre emulation… If you’re into that kind of thing.”

I personally enjoy it, honestly I wish some games would double down on it and include a better framework for scenes. But I definitely see that others are very against. Not sure what people who don’t like those games call them. Storygames?

For example, when the question was asked, I half assumed it was by someone who disliked genre emulating games

NSR 6:

If the question-answering is concluded, it might be worth moving further discussion of “genre emulation” to another channel?

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NSR:

this is a question for both you and Vincent - Are you able/willing to describe for us the most euphoric experience you have had related to rpgs (design, play, other)? Is it something you have tried to achieve again - and if so, how? And a question for you Meg specifically - I know you recently are coming out of a very challenging medical situation - at what point do you feel you’ll be able to look back and say “that experience influenced my game design in this and that specific way”? Or if you are already able to, would love to hear more details about that. Thank you

Vincent:

Are you able/willing to describe for us the most euphoric experience you have had related to rpgs (design, play, other)?

Oh heck yes. I’m sitting here in this very chair, at this very table, back in early 2019, writing the Wizard’s Grimoire. I wrote it for a game jam on itch in a long weekend. The whole time, I’ve been aware that I’m writing the setup for a joke, but I don’t yet know what the joke is. I’m just laying groundwork and building on it as the work demands, following the logic of the game as it unfolds. And then… I write the first sentence of the punch line, and I burst out literally laughing. Meg can tell you, I’ve been working hard for three days, and suddenly I’m falling out of my literal chair. Funniest joke I’ve ever heard.

Is it something you have tried to achieve again - and if so, how?

Not exactly, but I’ve learned that I can rely on having feelings of satisfaction and joy in every game I work on. It’s not usually a funny joke like that, but it’s always something. I love this work.

Meguey:

One great moment: it’s late November in 2014, we’re sitting in a cafe with Epidiah Ravachol, and he mentions it’s time to start thinking about Epimas and do we want to do game bundles or new games or what, and this GAME comes through my head like a clarion, like thunder and lightning, and I’m scrambling for my pencil and notebook and Vincent’s all “what’s up, everything ok?” and I’m like “Shut UP, Baker, can’t you see I’m writing?!?!?” and I write basically the whole first draft of The Holly & the Ivy in one go while Vincent and Eppy talk about whatever and my coffee gets cold. That was really great.

Oh, and the time Tovey was 5 years old and running a free-form game for me while we did chores and they asked, very seriously, if my character liked rocketships, and I said “sure!”, and they said, with great definiteness, “Ok, then your character has green footy pajamas with rocketships on them.” (ETA: I think it was rocketships? Now I’m going to have to go find where else I’ve told this bit in the past 12 years and confirm! The green footy pajamas I am 100% sure of!)

The effect of having breast cancer on my game design process (and everything really) Thanks for asking, that’s very thoughtful! My prognosis is great, and I am deeply grateful every day for the gift of modern medicine that is saving my life. Here is the most over-arching impact, so far: I have a great deal of time and patience and compassion for anyone who is trying to be a decent person and put good things into the world, like all of you in this thread. I have absolutely no tolerance for petty bullshit or small-group politics power-plays or all that crap. Life is too short, and there is too much beauty to stand amazed by to waste time being vindictive or rude or lording it over people. Just…no.

So my game design going forward is likely to be less brutal in the social politics area. I’m going to reprint 1001 Nights: A Game of Enticing Stories, because I love it, but if I was writing it fresh now, it might be different. Maybe I’ll do a second edition instead of just a reprint. Or and a reprint. Hmm.

NSR:

Very happy for your health.

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NSR:

I have a very practical question: when you design together, how do you collaborate? What’s your process? How do you decide who writes what? What tools and processes do you use when you’re working together to make a game?

Meguey:

We work on communication A Lot. Not just around game design, but in general. Learning to say “hold on, let me try again” instead of “no, you’re wrong, you don’t understand!”, learning to put our problems on the table in front of us and sit side-by-side to face it together instead of putting it between us, and understanding that we each need room to create, and we admire and respect and value each other’s creative process and expression has been good!

On a practical side, occasionally one of us will be too close to a game, so we can ask the other to read it over, check out the mechanics, etc etc, and usually that sets things off in a fruitful direction again.

I can’t quite describe the process here that’s most key, which is when we disagree on something and have to work hard to communicate clearly enough to find a solution. It’s not fighting, but it’s very intense fully-engaged problem-solving, and it can take time and emphatic focus. I kinda love it? I wouldn’t want to live there, but it means we’re close to solving something, so it’s always exciting.

Vincent:

when you design together, how do you collaborate?

Great question!

Let’s say that a game idea comes to me. It’s the same when one comes to Meg, but let’s say me. When a game idea comes to me, it’s mine. I’m responsible for developing it to the point where I can share it. Until then, Meg doesn’t know about it, or if I mention it, it’s casual, Meg doesn’t need to care. It’s not her problem.

Early games are hard to share. The only true expression of a game idea is a game, so it’s on me to develop the game enough for Meg to clearly see the idea behind it. This is the hardest part of every project.

Once the game’s hit that threshold, now we share it. I’ve already got momentum going, so usually I remain the primary developer, but now I can call on Meg whenever I need her eyes or insights or second opinion. And she, if she wants, can start developing it on her own, bringing her ideas to me to include. This part is easy and fun, since now we’re both working on the same game, from a shared vision. If we have disagreements, we both know that we’ll resolve them in the way that’s best for the game, so it’s fine, we’ll just keep working until we do.

Once I’m writing a serious draft, Meg’s reviewing and rewriting — or just thumbs-upping — every paragraph.

Like I say, same thing if it was Meg’s idea! Then it’s her draft, and she’s calling on me to review and thumbs-up it.

Eventually we work through layout and all the finishing work a game requires, and by then, we still know whose game it was originally, but we both made it.

It’s a good time.

NSR:

Thanks! This was a great insight into the process. Really appreciate it. Collaboration is something I’ve struggled a lot with in the past.

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NSR:

Have either of you ever considered writing a book about game design? You’ve blogged about it so much!

Meguey:

Totally skipping the entire order of everything to say I think about it regularly, but it hasn’t made it to the top of the stack yet, and it might just be “here are all the places I’ve talked about this before, enjoy!” Time will tell!

NSR:

If I could buy your blogs printed out on lush paper in A5 format that’d be perfectly fine for me LOL

Vincent:

Have either of you ever considered writing a book about game design?

I think about it sometimes, but whenever I’ve gone back to my blog and tried to edit a blog post into, like, a chapter, I can’t figure out how to do it. I think the conversational structure stymies me.

[trashed_tabletop]

NSR:

Game design always has a lot of tradeoffs. Obviously, PbtA is a success, but what parts of the system are your least favorite parts (if any)? Were there any rules that almost ended up differently?

Vincent:

A simple thing, I mentioned this already — Apocalypse World’s immediate predecessor, a game called Storming the Wizard’s Tower, used d6 pools where you count all your 4-6 rolls as hits. In that game, reading a person or a situation, attacking someone, etc, you got to choose 1 question or 1 option per hit, instead of 3 on a 10+ and 2 on a 7-9. I always preferred that, but Apocalypse World called for 2d6 instead.
Lots of little compromises in Apocalypse World! The way gang sizes work, for instance, is a compromise between how they should work and making them playable. You know how it is.

[trashed_tabletop]

NSR 1:

What is the relationship between MC moves in Apocalypse World and the Bangs presented in Sorcerer? My impression has always been that they are very closely related. Like, MC moves are like a way of “Driving with Bangs” that are tailored to a specific RPG’s themes; Bangs are like MC moves that specifically apply pressure to the sorcerer’s Humanity. Do you link MC moves to Bangs in the genealogy of game design? Or do you have another way of thinking about it?

NSR 2:

Where did MC moves in AW come from in terms of lineage? How did you wrestle with convenience versus constraints for the MC?

Vincent:

Do you link MC moves to Bangs in the genealogy of game design? Or do you have another way of thinking about it?

Where did MC moves in AW come from in terms of lineage? How did you wrestle with convenience versus constraints for the MC?

MC moves were born out of a textual necessity in Apocalypse World: I needed some vocabulary to talk about the GM’s specific contributions and role in the conversation. In the design, the intersection of the players’ moves and the GM’s agenda, rules and principles. That is, what you should say when it’s your turn to talk.

Bangs in Sorcerer are a much more specific idea, targeted to more specific circumstances. I guess you could say that they’re a kind of MC move, that MC moves include bangs, but I wouldn’t, since they predate Apocalypse World’s vocabulary by a solid decade. What I’d say instead is that, under similar circumstances, you can use MC moves to duplicate some of the effects of Sorcerer’s bangs. Still, though, Apocalypse World isn’t a bang-driven game. In Apocalypse World, bang-like moves are a sometimes food!

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NSR:

Hi, 2 questions and a whole lot of raw happiness chunks to you.

On the balance between structuring a play experience and leaving creative choice for players: don’t you think putting players interactions at the center of the “concentric” / onion structure in Apocalypse World design is a political choice? What lead you to this? Safety? Accessibility? Trying something different? A memorable play experience - conversation?

In play, do you feel a balance between the bonding of a temporary collective (players) and each member’s self expression? Do you use your own experience of collectives, or a model, or some fixed principles? Does this vary greatly with groups and games?

Vincent:

don’t you think putting players interactions at the center of the “concentric” / onion structure in Apocalypse World design is a political choice?
[…]
In play, do you feel a balance between the bonding of a temporary collective (players) and each member’s self expression?

Secretly 1 question! You’re speaking our language.

Answer: yes. Most directly, for both, they come from our long and happy experiences playing collaborative freeform roleplaying. Then additionally, informed by our experiences as commune-livers, fact- and consent-based sex educators, union members, parents, social service workers, historians, creative collaborators generally, and anarchists.

One of my personal heroes, Utah Phillips, has this to say:

The essence of contract is agreement
Not coercion or obedience
And agreement is sacred
What can one say?
I will not obey

In both design and play, at every moment, the ideal we strive for is to put all the players, bringing to bear all of their distinct interests and responsibilities, in a position to agree with one another as equals.

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NSR:

Hello Meg and Vincent. First of all, thanks a lot for taking the time to do this!

As for my questions:

1. What is something that you never saw being done by a TTRPG (or able to design it yourselves) satisfactorily? Be it some sort of genre emulation, mechanic, or simply some random idea for a game that makes you think "No one has ever done this properly and I can’t figure out how to do it either.”
2. What is one project of yours that you’re really proud of, but feel like it doesn’t get enough recognition. Something that you made and people are sleeping on it.
3. Which games you are most excited about lately that aren’t yours?

Vincent:

What is something that you never saw being done by a TTRPG (or able to design it yourselves) satisfactorily?

I wish that there were a lot more non-fanciful historical ttrpgs. I see why there aren’t, though! It’s a hard challenge basically no matter what historical period you choose.

What is one project of yours that you’re really proud of, but feel like it doesn’t get enough recognition.

Our game Under Hollow Hills! With all the humility I can muster, it’s a marvel. Nobody should sleep on it.

Which games you are most excited about lately that aren’t yours?

Right now my top two are Our Traveling Home by Ash Kreider and The Old the Cold the Bold by Whitney Delaglio.

I also have an inside line on a game in development I’m excited about, which is a Sandbaggers-inspired game by Emily Care Boss called The World’s Problems.

NSR:

What advice / bait / pitch would you lay out for someone who has Under Hollow Hills but doesn’t quite understand the kind of stories it’s supposed to be telling? What would you say we should read? Watch?

guilty face

Meguey:

What advice / bait / pitch would you lay out for someone who has Under Hollow Hills but doesn’t quite understand the kind of stories it’s supposed to be telling? What would you say we should read? Watch?

Read a lot of fairy tales and watch the original Muppet Show. A plot, B plot, performances, recurring characters major and minor, interpersonal relationships that matter, the occasional mortal who has No Idea what the heck is going on (John Cleese) OR is oddly in on the joke (Gilda Radner), etc etc.

NSR:

You just made something click for me with the Muppet Show connection here - Fairytale Muppet Show does it for me in a way that “traveling circus” hasn’t before! I love the muppets.

Vincent:

What advice / bait / pitch would you lay out for someone who has Under Hollow Hills but doesn’t quite understand the kind of stories it’s supposed to be telling?

You know how in Dogs in the Vineyard, the PCs have a book and a gun, and they have to deal with problems that can’t be solved with a book or a gun? In Under Hollow Hills, the PCs show up with a bunch of random circus acts, and they have to deal with problems that only the right circus performance can solve.

NSR:

This also helps me to figure out presenting a conflict in the place where the fairytale muppet show is performing, thanks!

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NSR:

Hi! I’m excited for the AMA! I’m curious if you’re into NSR or OSR stuff and do you have any favorites?

Vincent:

I’m kind of reserved about the OSR socially, for various reasons. I used to play Dungeon Crawl Classics because that’s what my friend was running, but I guess if I were going to play D&D, my first choice would be Moldvay Basic + Blorb, not one OSR game over another.

I’m just barely becoming aware of the NSR! I’ll check out Into the Odd (thx [NSR]).

NSR:

Would be curious re the Baker take on Into the Odd indeed.

Meguey:

I would love a chance to play Into the Odd sometime. It looks weird! I grew up on Moldvay D&D, and am technically half-way through running Keep of the Borderlands for a couple folks who had the nerve to graduate from high school and go off to college. Not OSR, just pure old school. There should be more hours/day and days/year, so we can all play all the games we want to even try.

NSR:

[Chris McDowall], who made Into the Odd, is the first person whose writing on game design comes anywhere close to lumpley.com, to me. Into the Odd is probably the second most influential text, after Otherkind, for how I read and run games myself.

[trashed_tabletop]

NSR:

I read the PbtA FAQs on your site to prepare for these questions:

1. How have your forays into Blorb been going?
2. Re: the section pictured here: It seems to me that, by being difficult to homebrew, PbtA creates demand for new games in a way that other cultures of play do not. Do you feel that this has given PbtA an advantage in the marketplace? How do you feel about subcultures like the “Free Kriegsspiel Revolution” (FKR) that suggest you don’t need a rules system to play a compelling RPG?
   
   
3. There are all sorts of ways to be creative and/or tell stories with others. Why do you find games, and role-playing games in particular, the most compelling way to do that?
   P.S. I love the RPG exceptionalism and essentialism post and it has made a lot of my thinking much clearer, so thank you for that.

Vincent:

How have your forays into Blorb been going?

Slow! I’m a bad Blorbist, in that I’m not really eager to put in the prepwork as DM. Instead I keep making games where nobody has to.

by being difficult to homebrew, PbtA creates demand for new games in a way that other cultures of play do not. Do you feel that this has given PbtA an advantage in the marketplace?

That’s a tough one. It’s certainly helped PbtA’s brand recognition. It seems to me that some PbtA games are able to capitalize on it, and others aren’t, and I’m not always sure which and why.

How do you feel about subcultures like the “Free Kriegsspiel Revolution” (FKR) that suggest you don’t need a rules system to play a compelling RPG?

Oh I’m with them. We had a similar subculture back in the 90s and 00s, we called it “freeform” then, we were in it. We played both the strongly GMed kind, which was a lot like the FKR is now I think, and the co-GMed kind, which we personally preferred.

I’ve always said, game rules are only useful if they give you things you can’t get on your own. Otherwise you’re better off playing freeform.

There are all sorts of ways to be creative and/or tell stories with others. Why do you find games, and role-playing games in particular, the most compelling way to do that?

Good question! I like the emotional intimacy that I develop with my characters in a role-playing game. I like the way that the other players’ contributions inspire my characters to surprise me, and I like the insights that the other players sometimes have into my characters.

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NSR:

Hi Meg and Vincent! Thanks so much for doing this AMA, I’m really excited to see what you have to say to all of the lovely questions people have been asking.

1. For M or V or both: What do you see as the 1 or 2 design ideas from the forge that you think have had the most enduring impact on modern RPG design? And 1 or 2 forge ideas that you think have aged really poorly?

2. For V: There’s been a fair amount of RPG theory discourse floating around recently that takes a strong stance against written rules/“systems” (not lumpley principle system). I’m thinking of e.g. Gearing’s “against incentive,” Sorensen’s “new simulationism,” and other bits of RPG theory that claim influence from texts like Sicart’s Against Procedurality. If you’ve tuned into that circle of ideas and have thoughts about it, what do you think? Alternatively: in what ways do you think the discourse around rejecting “systems”/rules/etc. has changed over the past few decades?

3. For M: at some point you wrote about how our concept of mortality changes as we grow up/age, and how this relates to our understanding of mortality in games. I really loved that type of connection! So I was wondering if you’ve thought much about other ways in which our development might be reflected in our games/gameplay? Have you noticed this type of phenomenon in big ways in yourself, your children, or people close to you that you’d want to share?

Meguey:

at some point you wrote about how our concept of mortality changes as we grow up/age, and how this relates to our understanding of mortality in games. I really loved that type of connection! So I was wondering if you’ve thought much about other ways in which our development might be reflected in our games/gameplay? Have you noticed this type of phenomenon in big ways in yourself, your children, or people close to you that you’d want to share?

Systems-thinking and the interconnected web of which we are all a part is the water I swim in, yeah. There are two answers to your question, depending on if we take “our development” to mean 1) the inescapable process of aging, or 2) the cultural influences on us.

For the first, right of the top, we experience the concept of “other” over and over, in our own bodies, as we grow up. We don’t start as playing, walking, talking, creatures, we have to become them. We have to constantly embrace our changing selves, and that is not always comfortable or welcome, as anyone who has ever felt awkward knows.

And it doesn’t stop! We keep on doing it and it keeps on being weird and awkward and sometimes no fun at all!

However, it can help teach us self-care and self-awareness, and connect us to generations before and after us, and guide us towards both greater self-acceptance and empathy, if we let it.

For the second, all of that, but through the lens of what messages you received, intentionally and unintentionally, from your family of origin, geographical location, and the history handed down to you.

Vincent:

What do you see as the 1 or 2 design ideas from the forge that you think have had the most enduring impact on modern RPG design? And 1 or 2 forge ideas that you think have aged really poorly?

Well let’s see. The Forge’s two core ideas, its fundamental principles, were (1) you can make an rpg that works how you want it to, according to your own unique vision, and (2) you can publish your game yourself if you want to. It’s kind of cheating to point to them as the ideas from the Forge that have had the most enduring impact, but there they are. Nowadays they’re simple facts, not ideas at all.

I think that the idea of actor/author/director stance has aged poorly. These days I only see it parroted as an anti-storygames meme. I don’t imagine that it figures much in anybody’s design work.

I think that GNS has aged poorly, but still has a lot of influence.

If you’ve tuned into that circle of ideas and have thoughts about it, what do you think?

Only because you ask me frankly: I’m a freeformer of old. I know that you don’t need explicit rules to play. I think it’s fine that they’re carrying that torch, but it also seems to me that their implicit model of play is basically D&D, and that doesn’t impress me. I think that leaning on the D&D model lets them sweep the technical processes of creative collaboration under the rug, unexamined. If they want me to take them seriously (which they don’t, why should they!), they’d need to go further. They’d need to take down their implicit systems — the idea of the GM and the idea of character ownership, for instance — along with explicit systems.

Plus, I don’t admire the idea that fewer people should create games, who’d otherwise like to.

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NSR:

Nice to see you on this server Vincent and Meg! Thanks for doing this!
I’ll drop a cliché one:

1. What design advice would you give your younger selves?
2. What’s your writing process like?
3. Do you have any guilty pleasure RPGs?

Meguey:

What design advice would you give your younger selves?

Perfect is the enemy of done, but also, you can go for stuff you are fully happy with, from mechanics to wording to the color of the end papers.

Once you’re at the printers, let it go! There will be typos! So what! Catch them for the second printing, or next edition, and move on!

What’s your writing process like?

I carry a pocket notebook and pencil with me everywhere, and write whenever i have a moment. 1001 Nights was written largely balanced on the handle of a stroller while the baby slept. PsiRun was written largely while waiting to pick up a kid from school. What became Under Hollow Hills was drafted in Emily Care Boss’ living room while waiting for my car to be repaired. If it’s good enough or interesting enough to make it from a notebook to a google doc, I keep writing.

I also jot things down in google docs all the time, and sometimes now I email myself design ideas, but the stuff that starts digitally historically has less of a chance at reaching playtesting.

Do you have any guilty pleasure RPGs?

I really liked playing Beast in Cam Banks’ Marvel Heroic

Vincent:

What design advice would you give your younger selves?

When I look back on the opportunities I missed, I remember why I missed them, so it’s hard to think what kind of advice would have made a difference. Maybe, buckle down a little more? I’m kind of a slacker.

What’s your writing process like?

I learned good writing habits in school. I draft quickly without revising too much as I go, then go back and revise once I have a whole text to refer to. I make outlines to work from. I can diagram my sentences if I need to. I like words and I enjoy playing with them, but I’m not precious with my writing, I take editing cheerfully and thoughtfully.

My main bad habit is, I draft directly into layout. Just try to stop me.

My ergonomics are terrible, though. My chair’s barely tolerable and I have to fold up cushions to sit on or it kills my back. I hunch over and squint at my screen. My elbows dangle off the table and my wrists throb. It’s the pits.

Do you have any guilty pleasure RPGs?

Hm, I don’t think I do! Only pleasure ones.

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NSR:

Ooh … I also have a weirdly specific question - feel free to skip: what’s the story behind the design of the sex move in PbtA? Where did it come from? Who invented it? What was the context of it?

Meguey:

I’m a certified sex education teacher for grades 7-12, and have designed curricula for adults dealing with their own sexuality, for parents of young children navigating how to foster holistic and healthy attitudes around sexuality, and for parents of tweens and up dealing with their children’s emerging sense of and expression of their own sexuality.

Vincent is also trained to teach the core 7-12 curriculum, but has never done so in a classroom. 85% of what I teach is communication and respect for one’s own boundaries as well as those of others, 10% is STDs and contraception, 5% is biology and mechanics. It also involves a lot of game design for specific things, like a weird take on a vector-movement game to demonstrate the spread of STDs.

Given that background, there was zero chance my game design would not address issues of consent, agency, gender, and sexuality.

When we were designing Apocalypse World, there were no games going that acknowledged any relationship to sexuality as part of a PC’s existence. From the start, we were looking for ways to face that, from actively suggesting that PCs could present as more than “male/female”, to suggesting that one’s gender could be hidden or nonconforming or transgessive against current norms, to exploring the different ways that people (and therefor PCs) react to their own sexuality.

The special moves flow directly from that. Even if they never hit the table, if romantic or sexual plot-lines never come up in play, they help shape the PC: the Angel feels much closer to the PC they have sex with and the connection has deeper meaning, the Battlebabe is in it for their own pleasure and gone with no strings attached, the Savvyhead now knows how they fit with their partner and understands them differently, the Driver gets jumpy and projects all kinds of big words like “commitment” on their partner and it freaks them out.

Making a game that, from what we have heard, has over and over and over made queer folk feel like they are not just tolerated but welcome as an integral part of a thing, and giving people a place to start examining how they want to handle similar questions in their own design, is pretty neat. I’m pretty proud of that work.

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NSR:

I can just add questions here still right?

Many of your design innovations have become part of the repertoire and discourse. What do you think is a hidden gem from you - something you came up with that is under appreciated and people should think about it more?

Meguey:

Otherkind dice, especially as implemented in the Risk Sheet my game PsiRun.

Otherkind dice work by set up a short list of questions or ambiguous situations, then having a dice pool of potentials, then assigning dice to each question. It’s so much fun, and puts so much agency in the hands of the player. I absolutely love it.

This is one of the very best mechanics for playing with young children or folks who are worried they might “get it wrong” or their character could be yanked away from them. It allows them to decide when/where their PC fails or succeeds, and at what, and it is magnificent to put that storytelling authority and creative constraint in the hands of your players!!!

NSR:

Im disappointed by this answer because I already love Otherkind dice

Vincent:

What do you think is a hidden gem from you - something you came up with that is under appreciated and people should think about it more?

Yeah! Arenas of conflict. The idea of arenas of conflict (or more generally, arenas of action) underlies all of my design work. I barely think about anything else! Somehow it doesn’t seem to do it for other people, though.

NSR:

what does that mean, exactly?

Vincent:

You know how when two people have a conflict of interests, it might play out between them in physical violence, or a yelling confrontation, or in a courtroom, or in an incident of road rage, or in a calm mediated negotiation, or in a proxy war on a distant planet, or in a public election campaign? And how it might start in one of those, then continue into another, and finally resolve in a third (or fourth, or fifth)? Those are what I’d call arenas of conflict.

NSR:

oooh, got it… Is this where “moves” in AW come from? I have to agree that well-executed procedures/minigames for various types of conflict make games more interesting to me than a universal resolution mechanic.

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NSR:

What were the inspirations behind Dogs in the Vineyard? Were there any games at the time that influenced the design? Ditto for Poison’d too now that I think about it and if it’s not too much to ask

Vincent:

Absolutely, let’s see. For Dogs in the Vineyard, the big influences would have been Sorcerer (Ron Edwards), the Riddle of Steel (Jake Norwood), Burning Wheel (Luke Crane), My Life with Master (Paul Czege), Universalis (Ralph Mazza & Mike Holmes), and surely another game or two that I’m forgetting. The Riddle of Steel probably had the biggest mechanical impact on the game, but you could find the influence of all of those if you looked.

For Poison’d, add in Primetime Adventures (Matt Wilson), the Mountain Witch (Tim Kleinert), Trollbabe (Ron Edwards), even InSpectres (Jared Sorensen).

(Edited to add author names)

Vincent added that edit and edit note, not me.