I’m planning to start a new campaign soon and looking for system recommendations. I’ve run OSR-style one-shots and short adventures before (mostly Shadowdark and Mothership) but this will be the first OSR-style campaign I’ve run since… I don’t know, probably when I played B/X in the 80s.
I am aiming for some dying earth-influenced setting and will probably use the setting or at least the worldbuilding tools in WWN. When I say “narrative sandbox” what I generally mean is that I like my players to run characters who at least have backgrounds and goals to build on, and I use factions and NPCs to help propel emergent narrative. No planned plot, though I may include what I like to think of as a spine - big overarching stuff happening in the background that the PCs can choose to interact with or not, as they see fit.
So… trying to pick a system to run this in and struggling with the sheer volume of options. Been reading obsessively, but reading and running are two different things so hoping for some advice from those who have run these systems before. I want a system with some character options and progression mechanics - I think my players will strongly favor this, so probably nothing classless or level-less. I’m not a big fan of very rigid procedures, but having procedures to leverage is helpful as long as they are flexible. I want something that is pretty easy to learn and plays fast at the table.
Main contenders so far…
Shadowdark: I’ve run this one for one-shots. Love the speed of play, lack of skills, easy to learn, non-vancian magic. It just doesn’t seem like it has a lot of tools or procedures for campaign play outside of the dungeon.
OSE: I’m kind of looking at this just because everyone seems to say this is the system to play (and also the books look SO COOL!!!). But I didn’t like the rigidity of B/X back in the day (at least once I dabbled in other games) and I’m not sure if I would have the same resistance now.
DCC: I like some of the subsystems in this - mighty deeds, spellburn, spending luck, random spell tables. I also played lots of 3e so the system seems easy. I wonder though how well it works for campaign play and also if maybe its slow at the table having to always reference tables for spellcasting and such.
WWN: The system mechanics have some great ideas but I worry it is maybe too crunchy, plus having an action economy in combat seems like its taking steps towards trad, combat-focused gaming and away from OSR. But again, no experience with this system at the table.
I’m kind of skipping over Cairn, ITO, Knave, and other classless games because I think my PCs will want a little more depth and progression to their characters.
Any advice on any of the above systems or other systems you would strongly recommend for this kind of game?
Here’s my 2 coppers, but I’d give you a disclaimer that I read many more RPG books than I play.
Shadowdark - If you like unified roll over mechanics and prioritize flexibility above fidelity to old school play. As you know, the system deemphasizing heavy loot, coin counting, torch tracking, and henchman management. It just depends on whether you will miss these features in longer campaign. The cursed scroll zines typify what the system runs like as overland adventures. Its faction and NPC tools are not very robust beyond inspirational tables and mostly rely on DM fiat. So if you go this route you will likely need to rely on supplemental sources to build up factions, towns, and overland play. Further supplements may expand the areas you want but are likely a ways out. Some players dislike the randomized progression.
OSE - If you are interested in compatibility with a seemingly endless number of OSR blogs and premade adventures and don’t want to convert content. Also good if you know what you want out of a system and don’t mind hacking to get you there. Its a classic, but honestly it sounds a bit like the opposite of your intended goals. At its heart its still the same B/X you played back in the 80s with a fresh coat of paint (for better or worse).
DCC - From your 3e background you could probably breeze through this, but it will depend on on how fast your players are at navigating tables, making decisions quickly, and creating little cheat sheets for themselves for mechanics they use all the time. Do you already own the funky dice? It also straight up has the Jack Vance dying earth setting if you are interested in going all in on your proposed theme. Goodman Games also have Mutant Crawl Classics that some people mix in with their standard DCC if you want a mix of wacky Sci-fi and the fantastical. This probably the most expensive option.
WWN - Honestly from your opening post about campaign description and what you say you want out of a system this sounds the most like what you want. I’d run a dungeon you are already familiar to test out the system and see if your concerns are borne out. I’d mention that people successfully run OSR style games with entirely trad systems, its mostly about the attitude and play culture enforced at the table. I concede that it might not be the best for teaching folks new to OSR gaming. Still if a particular rule becomes a pain or slows things down you can always adjust it later.
Wild Card Recommendation: Barbarians of Ruined Earth. Its a black hack variant inspired by Thundarr the Barbarian and other Saturday morning cartoon. You pair that with something like Anomalous Subsurface Environment and you’re in for a gonzo romp through the land of 1,000 towers. Disregard this pick if you want a serious game not focused on action.
Overall if you are the kind of person that wants a cool system that’s fiddley for players go with either DCC or WWN. If you want system to get the heck out of your way go with Shadowdark or OSE.
Per your suggestion, I’m going to try making some WWN characters and fiddle around with the system myself and see how it goes. I totally agree conceptually - any system can be OSR… more a matter of how you run it. I’d just prefer to be playing a system that’s supporting the style of play rather than me fighting against it. It’s also about adjusting player mindset - you can run 5e OSR style, but then you’re fighting not just against the system but also ingrained player expectations.
Will definitely check out your Wild Card Recommendation! It might be too gonzo for this setting idea, but sounds hella-fun for one shots! Thanks!
I haven’t thoroughly read through this book, or ever played it, but Beyond the Wall might be worth considering! At the very least, I’d give it a skim - you could be able to steal some of their more narrative elements for your game.
In my head I’d describe it as like, character-heavy OSR (compared to stuff like Into the Odd or Cairn, which feel character-light). This blog post can say it better than I can though: https://whodaresrolls.com/rpgs/beyond-the-wall/
Apart from that, you might want to try out a GLOG hack, or fix up one of your own? I typically run GLOG when I want something heftier than Cairn but less rigid than a retroclone, so that might be useful here.
+1 for Beyond the Wall, its a fantastic interpretation of the classic D&D framework with a lot of tools for managing group origins and development, sandbox collaboration, and playing characters from a variety of points in their life or backgrounds who have relevance with each other (especially when adding in the supplements).
I’ll take a look at Beyond the Wall - I was going to use WWN for worldbuilding and sandbox generation, but I like the idea of group origins. Maybe I can steal some ideas from there.
I’ve resisted falling in the GLOG hole thus far! I fear once I start delving into GLOG I’ll never actually get a game to the table cause I’ll spend all my time tinkering and hacking.
The Electrum Archive and Vaults of Vaarn may be worth taking a look at. I like the gist of TEA’s progression system and it’s got some great faction worldbuilding. Vaarn has wild sci-fantasy classes, too. Both systems are lighter than WWN. At worst, they’re on theme and amazing plunder to use in your game, so kind of a win-win.
There is a sister system to Beyond the Wall which is called Through Sunken Lands. It has a Sword and Sorcery vibe with all the ease of use and little narrative-driven tools seen in BtWaOA. Worth checking it out.
“I think my PCs will want a little more depth and progression to their characters.”
this got me thinking…
I find this to be generally true. I think of classes as sort of guaranteed, minimum standard experience. A player has a certain amount of control over the game. They work towards abstract goals (XP) and unlock that experience.
But that is also a trust issue… why do they need that guarantee?
A classless, level-less, no XP game in theory should be better for a sandbox in that the players have to engage the world to “progress”. You want to get better? you gotta train, you have to get rich, you have to learn stuff, win awards, make friends, etc. All things that SHOULD drive a narrative sandbox BETTER than class/XP/leveling.
Checked out Vaults of Vaarn and this is right up my alley for setting! Bought all of the zines and the adventures and planning to really lean into this. Whether I use the WWN Latter Earth setting and pull in Vaarn stuff or just right it right in the Vaarn setting, either way it’s getting some love. Thanks for the recommendation! There’s so much great stuff out there these days, I love discovering things like this.
Caveat here because I have not played a lot of classless RPGs, but to me the benefit of having classes is the class identity. If the only thing that separates me from the guy standing next to me is that he got a handaxe on his background roll and I got a bag of caltrops, that doesn’t differentiate those characters very much. But if he’s a barbarian and I’m a thief, then I have a very good frame of reference for what those characters are like.
While gaining levels and other progression mechanics should not strictly be necessary - you’re assertion about narrative progression is theoretically true with the right group - I think mechanical progression can also be fun.
Did you see that Leo hunt was working on Vaults of Vaarn 2e? I got excited by this news after missing my chance to pick up the deluxe edition.
It Could be nice if you do end up primarily using Vaarn for your campaign.
On the WWN side I also just learned about a newly released starting area designed to kick off a campaign. Wasn’t sure if it would be helpful since it sounded like you planned on designing your own region. It’s called the Diocesi of Montfroid
I looked at the preview of Diocesi of Montfroid and sadly wasn’t too excited by the quasi-medieval France vibe I got from skimming the preview pages. I haven’t seen any good reviews for it around either. Have you run it?
I did not know about Vaults of Vaarn 2e. I signed up for the backerkit announcement!
Nope! I’ve only read the WWN mechanics. Ive heard the game’s default setting discussed as if it’s a dying earth world but my assumption is those setting elements must be subtle for compatibility to the broader OSR. Perhaps sort of like how the original planet of the apes wanted its backstory to be a big reveal? it sounds like I’d want to bring that weird to the forefront if I ever ran it.
i’ll just describe my personal ultimate classless/level-less/full diegetic progression system. (pretty much my current homerules)
small seeds at character creation, probably a combination of random and some choice. these seeds should hint at directions for the character in the future. classic seeds would be starting with backgrounds that hint at class-like archetypes. village priest with a holy symbol, apprentice wizard that knows a lil cantrip, street tough that can hide in shadows, etc.
small, player mechanical benefits that accrue by interacting with the world. EXAMPLE: I am currently doing a houserule where if you get a crit (hit or miss) there is a 50/50 chance you also improve (choice of attribute bonus for the attribute used or a narratively sensible new ability, reflected in gaining advantage in similar situations, or unlocking a new skill/power). this encourages players to do risky things, and then the character gets better at the things they tend to do, which differentiates characters, and slowly makes them class-like. (the strong get stronger, the fast faster, the skilled more skilly) and allows for some player agency, players can guide their characters independent of the GM.
adventures that support diegetic advancement. this is the Big one. takes a while to convert prewritten adventures… but basically when writing adventures, you make sure that
A. “treasure”… aka rewards… are not just gold. also permanent blessings, magical effects that cause improvements. throw in people that teach things for a fee, teach spells or skills, etc. give players titles, land, followers, etc. magic items fall into this (helps to stay away from the +1 sword issue and make MI’s rare but very powerful).
B. throw in some negative/neutral changes as well. monsters that permanently affect characters (from lil things like turn hair white, to big things like bite off legs). curses/spells that have permanent effects (you now have the head of a rooster).
it all requires high player trust. but if you design things well, I… uh… THINK … it works?
Yeah I’ve read through the setting stuff and I’m planning on borrowing a lot of it for my game. It’s definitely dying earth-influenced with weird stuff like alien “outsiders,” reality-warped “arratu” regions, automatons, blighted mutants, and more.
I’m aiming for a campaign that looks and feels “sword and sorcery” on top but if you scratch beneath the surface you start to see the science fantasy showing through. Looks like Conan on top but dig a little and you will find Jack Vance beneath.